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	<title>Comments on: Mirvac: Land is for Hocking, Not Housing</title>
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	<link>http://www.earthsharing.org.au/2009/02/19/mirvac-land-is-for-hocking-not-housing/</link>
	<description>Opportunity and Equity</description>
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		<title>By: K2</title>
		<link>http://www.earthsharing.org.au/2009/02/19/mirvac-land-is-for-hocking-not-housing/comment-page-1/#comment-544</link>
		<dc:creator>K2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Mar 2009 00:36:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.earthsharing.org.au/?p=963#comment-544</guid>
		<description>Mark,

I&#039;m sorry but as author of the above article I can&#039;t let you have the last say! Using your mentality we should have $20 tollways for driving and similar $20 train fares. Using user pays mentality always fails because it does not consider the holistic effect of infrastructure on the surrounding communities. The benefit of a new train = higher land values. 

Please check out the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.democracy4sale.org/index.php?option=com_content&amp;view=article&amp;id=187:the-greens-developers-map-of-sydney-overview&amp;catid=22:developers-map&amp;Itemid=26&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Developers Map of Sydney&lt;/a&gt; and also please please read &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.prosper.org.au/bookshop/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wheels of Fortune&lt;/a&gt; (scroll down) to see how East Asian train companies can be profitable with minimal user fees. 

Why should one generation have to foot the bill for developer charges when for over century council rates have funded them over 20 years and a multitude of owners? For an understanding of effective council rating please read this report prepared for the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.prosper.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/aius-report.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Aust Institute of Urban Planning&lt;/a&gt;

ahh that feels better!
Karl</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry but as author of the above article I can&#8217;t let you have the last say! Using your mentality we should have $20 tollways for driving and similar $20 train fares. Using user pays mentality always fails because it does not consider the holistic effect of infrastructure on the surrounding communities. The benefit of a new train = higher land values. </p>
<p>Please check out the <a href="http://www.democracy4sale.org/index.php?option=com_content&amp;view=article&amp;id=187:the-greens-developers-map-of-sydney-overview&amp;catid=22:developers-map&amp;Itemid=26" rel="nofollow">Developers Map of Sydney</a> and also please please read <a href="http://www.prosper.org.au/bookshop/" rel="nofollow">Wheels of Fortune</a> (scroll down) to see how East Asian train companies can be profitable with minimal user fees. </p>
<p>Why should one generation have to foot the bill for developer charges when for over century council rates have funded them over 20 years and a multitude of owners? For an understanding of effective council rating please read this report prepared for the <a href="http://www.prosper.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/aius-report.pdf" rel="nofollow">Aust Institute of Urban Planning</a></p>
<p>ahh that feels better!<br />
Karl</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.earthsharing.org.au/2009/02/19/mirvac-land-is-for-hocking-not-housing/comment-page-1/#comment-504</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:00:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.earthsharing.org.au/?p=963#comment-504</guid>
		<description>May I also mention how refreshing it is to see a rational and civil, internet based discussion!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>May I also mention how refreshing it is to see a rational and civil, internet based discussion!</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.earthsharing.org.au/2009/02/19/mirvac-land-is-for-hocking-not-housing/comment-page-1/#comment-503</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 11:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.earthsharing.org.au/?p=963#comment-503</guid>
		<description>Ultimately infrastructure charges are a &quot;user pays&quot; system; but yes, I agree that the taxation system could also be used to great impact in preventing urban sprawl.  As you mention, other techniques such as urban growth boundaries can also be highly effective.  Ultimately though, urban sprawl will require a cultural shift in Australia; away from the ideal of the detached dwelling with a private yard.  The efficiency of high density development is obvious but that doesn&#039;t mean it will be desirable to those accustomed to &quot;their own space&quot;.  There really is no one method that will see Australian cities reach that almost utopian ideal of sustainability in growth based, capitalist economy.  It&#039;s a problem that is so complex that it needs to be confronted from many different angles.  Infrastructure charging is just one of these but I believe it has a positive effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ultimately infrastructure charges are a &#8220;user pays&#8221; system; but yes, I agree that the taxation system could also be used to great impact in preventing urban sprawl.  As you mention, other techniques such as urban growth boundaries can also be highly effective.  Ultimately though, urban sprawl will require a cultural shift in Australia; away from the ideal of the detached dwelling with a private yard.  The efficiency of high density development is obvious but that doesn&#8217;t mean it will be desirable to those accustomed to &#8220;their own space&#8221;.  There really is no one method that will see Australian cities reach that almost utopian ideal of sustainability in growth based, capitalist economy.  It&#8217;s a problem that is so complex that it needs to be confronted from many different angles.  Infrastructure charging is just one of these but I believe it has a positive effect.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://www.earthsharing.org.au/2009/02/19/mirvac-land-is-for-hocking-not-housing/comment-page-1/#comment-502</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 22:12:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.earthsharing.org.au/?p=963#comment-502</guid>
		<description>I agree that upfront developers&#039; costs are far from the main reason for rising land costs, Mark, but they do add significantly to the price of a block, and if the developer simply adds them to the cost, it seems to me that hitting homeowners for wanting to live somewhere seems a bit perverse.

I agree we need to address urban sprawl, Mark, but wouldn&#039;t the Earthsharing idea of higher taxes on property tend to discourage sprawl and encourage more intensive development within the existing urban footprint?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that upfront developers&#8217; costs are far from the main reason for rising land costs, Mark, but they do add significantly to the price of a block, and if the developer simply adds them to the cost, it seems to me that hitting homeowners for wanting to live somewhere seems a bit perverse.</p>
<p>I agree we need to address urban sprawl, Mark, but wouldn&#8217;t the Earthsharing idea of higher taxes on property tend to discourage sprawl and encourage more intensive development within the existing urban footprint?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.earthsharing.org.au/2009/02/19/mirvac-land-is-for-hocking-not-housing/comment-page-1/#comment-499</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:03:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.earthsharing.org.au/?p=963#comment-499</guid>
		<description>Yes, it does up the purchaser&#039;s cost as I mentioned.  Again, only fair as they are the people using and creating the new demand on infrastructure.  As I also mentioned, on a lot per lot basis these costs are a tiny fraction of the jump in property prices witnessed in the last ten years.  Up front infrastructure charges are not to blame for unaffordable housing prices (I&#039;d place the blame for that on easy credit, landbanking (as this article clearly demonstrates) and rampant speculation on what is a basic human need).  Somewhere along the line the cost of infrastructure must be met.  Hitting developers up front gets that money in the kitty fast where it&#039;s needed to meet the new demand generated by development.  At the end of the day, it&#039;s a far superior system if we want to create orderly, well-planned development.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, it does up the purchaser&#8217;s cost as I mentioned.  Again, only fair as they are the people using and creating the new demand on infrastructure.  As I also mentioned, on a lot per lot basis these costs are a tiny fraction of the jump in property prices witnessed in the last ten years.  Up front infrastructure charges are not to blame for unaffordable housing prices (I&#8217;d place the blame for that on easy credit, landbanking (as this article clearly demonstrates) and rampant speculation on what is a basic human need).  Somewhere along the line the cost of infrastructure must be met.  Hitting developers up front gets that money in the kitty fast where it&#8217;s needed to meet the new demand generated by development.  At the end of the day, it&#8217;s a far superior system if we want to create orderly, well-planned development.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://www.earthsharing.org.au/2009/02/19/mirvac-land-is-for-hocking-not-housing/comment-page-1/#comment-498</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:21:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.earthsharing.org.au/?p=963#comment-498</guid>
		<description>&quot;Scott free&quot;, Mark? Developers must be penalised for subdividing and providing services? Why should this be so, particularly as it obviously adds significantly to the cost one must pay for a home site?

As land values rise over a period of time, why shouldn&#039;t the owner contribute some small part of this uplift in value back to the community? That is, initial headworks charges and maintenance become recouped by the state over a protracted period of time. 

Trying to get it all back &#039;up front&#039; from developers is the sort of arrant policy nonsense into which the community has slipped, clearly adding enormously to the cost of a piece of land. We usen&#039;t do it this way, and we shouldn&#039;t now. 

Once it&#039;s known that headworks charges will be recouped gradually over time in property rates or land tax, this must act to reduce homeowners&#039; initial land purchase costs. It used to work quite well this way - and the only change is nonsensical public policy.  

Surely, slugging the property developer up front really only sends the purchaser&#039;s costs up, Mark?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Scott free&#8221;, Mark? Developers must be penalised for subdividing and providing services? Why should this be so, particularly as it obviously adds significantly to the cost one must pay for a home site?</p>
<p>As land values rise over a period of time, why shouldn&#8217;t the owner contribute some small part of this uplift in value back to the community? That is, initial headworks charges and maintenance become recouped by the state over a protracted period of time. </p>
<p>Trying to get it all back &#8216;up front&#8217; from developers is the sort of arrant policy nonsense into which the community has slipped, clearly adding enormously to the cost of a piece of land. We usen&#8217;t do it this way, and we shouldn&#8217;t now. </p>
<p>Once it&#8217;s known that headworks charges will be recouped gradually over time in property rates or land tax, this must act to reduce homeowners&#8217; initial land purchase costs. It used to work quite well this way &#8211; and the only change is nonsensical public policy.  </p>
<p>Surely, slugging the property developer up front really only sends the purchaser&#8217;s costs up, Mark?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.earthsharing.org.au/2009/02/19/mirvac-land-is-for-hocking-not-housing/comment-page-1/#comment-497</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 09:26:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.earthsharing.org.au/?p=963#comment-497</guid>
		<description>Jeff,

Infrastructure charges are completely fair in my opinion.  Let&#039;s say a developer gets a hold of a nice big parcel of land 5km from an exiting population centre.  They get approval for let&#039;s say 100 lots and they clear it, put in water/sewer pipes, dedicate road etc and generally get it ready for people to setup houses there.  The developer sells the lots and leaves.  In the meantime 100 new families move in.  These 100 families add use on the infrastructure they connect to.  Roads, sewer, water treatment, parks, community facilities, stormwater, water supply etc.  So why should the public at large pay for the strain created by new developments while the people who profit from it walk away scott free?  Infrastructure charges mean that the costs of development are worn by those who benefit from it.  Yes, these charges are ultimately born by the purchaser but contrary to the claims of the housing industry, on a lot per lot basis, they are not at levels high enough to explain Australia&#039;s crisis in affordable housing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff,</p>
<p>Infrastructure charges are completely fair in my opinion.  Let&#8217;s say a developer gets a hold of a nice big parcel of land 5km from an exiting population centre.  They get approval for let&#8217;s say 100 lots and they clear it, put in water/sewer pipes, dedicate road etc and generally get it ready for people to setup houses there.  The developer sells the lots and leaves.  In the meantime 100 new families move in.  These 100 families add use on the infrastructure they connect to.  Roads, sewer, water treatment, parks, community facilities, stormwater, water supply etc.  So why should the public at large pay for the strain created by new developments while the people who profit from it walk away scott free?  Infrastructure charges mean that the costs of development are worn by those who benefit from it.  Yes, these charges are ultimately born by the purchaser but contrary to the claims of the housing industry, on a lot per lot basis, they are not at levels high enough to explain Australia&#8217;s crisis in affordable housing.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.earthsharing.org.au/2009/02/19/mirvac-land-is-for-hocking-not-housing/comment-page-1/#comment-495</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:59:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.earthsharing.org.au/?p=963#comment-495</guid>
		<description>I think Grant is saying they can&#039;t be a monopolist and make a very ordinary 5% return on capital at the same time.  Evidence of market power should be excessively high return on capital (not absolute profit).  I don&#039;t see it.  I&#039;m more in the debt fueled speculative bubble camp but I think the supply issues due to government incompetence (land and infrastructure and inner city infill regulations) were a secondary and strong supporting force.  It&#039;s all unravelling now.  The ironic thing is while state and local governments squeeze every last cent out of the &quot;industry&quot; we have the federal government bailing out property developers.  It&#039;s a money go round with my tax dollars!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Grant is saying they can&#8217;t be a monopolist and make a very ordinary 5% return on capital at the same time.  Evidence of market power should be excessively high return on capital (not absolute profit).  I don&#8217;t see it.  I&#8217;m more in the debt fueled speculative bubble camp but I think the supply issues due to government incompetence (land and infrastructure and inner city infill regulations) were a secondary and strong supporting force.  It&#8217;s all unravelling now.  The ironic thing is while state and local governments squeeze every last cent out of the &#8220;industry&#8221; we have the federal government bailing out property developers.  It&#8217;s a money go round with my tax dollars!</p>
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		<title>By: K2</title>
		<link>http://www.earthsharing.org.au/2009/02/19/mirvac-land-is-for-hocking-not-housing/comment-page-1/#comment-494</link>
		<dc:creator>K2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 08:54:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.earthsharing.org.au/?p=963#comment-494</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately Grant, if infra was provided in all these areas then the price of housing would be even higher! Monopolists of unique locations have the power to withold supply until their price is met.

Agreed tho, the developer charges are destined to fall to criticism. A return to the more effective system of council rates (on site values only) where infra is paid off over 20 years via the use of council bonds is desperately needed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately Grant, if infra was provided in all these areas then the price of housing would be even higher! Monopolists of unique locations have the power to withold supply until their price is met.</p>
<p>Agreed tho, the developer charges are destined to fall to criticism. A return to the more effective system of council rates (on site values only) where infra is paid off over 20 years via the use of council bonds is desperately needed.</p>
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		<title>By: Grant</title>
		<link>http://www.earthsharing.org.au/2009/02/19/mirvac-land-is-for-hocking-not-housing/comment-page-1/#comment-493</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 03:27:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.earthsharing.org.au/?p=963#comment-493</guid>
		<description>Jeff Smith has hit the nail on the head. Mirvac have a market cap of $1.4B - a return of around 5% is not a good investment. They are not rolling in cash when you consider every investor (who gave them that $1.4B) expects better than 5% return.

The government on the other hand has walked away (or blindly ignored) this problem in the hope that the community will attack them. Lack of investment in infrastucture to diverse and competing new and developing outer areas of the city would have negated the need for high housing. 

If north, east, west and south regions are all competeing for new land buyers, and the infrastructure was such that it was reasonable to live in those locations - then this problem would be negated to a large extent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff Smith has hit the nail on the head. Mirvac have a market cap of $1.4B &#8211; a return of around 5% is not a good investment. They are not rolling in cash when you consider every investor (who gave them that $1.4B) expects better than 5% return.</p>
<p>The government on the other hand has walked away (or blindly ignored) this problem in the hope that the community will attack them. Lack of investment in infrastucture to diverse and competing new and developing outer areas of the city would have negated the need for high housing. </p>
<p>If north, east, west and south regions are all competeing for new land buyers, and the infrastructure was such that it was reasonable to live in those locations &#8211; then this problem would be negated to a large extent.</p>
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